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Post by phatman113 on Apr 19, 2023 15:20:11 GMT
Thank you for being attentive to sound... As another person who's quite sensitive to it, it would definitely be an issue for me if it were annoyingly loud in a quiet camping area...
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Post by BoxGods on Apr 19, 2023 17:09:40 GMT
Thank you for being attentive to sound... As another person who's quite sensitive to it, it would definitely be an issue for me if it were annoyingly loud in a quiet camping area... Yeah I'm a tiny bit obsessive about it--mostly in my personal space though. Since the universe loves irony, I married a woman, (whom I'm still madly in love with after 30 years) who has a TV on in every room--usually with each on a different station--and can't go to sleep without a TV on. And I live a block form a 10,000 seat high school football stadium. In South Texas. There are days where I daydream about going to a sporting goods store, buying a coaches whistle, then running it over in the parking lot about 15 times =) As a fellow sound sensitive person I should point out that there is not going to be a 100% silent solution as you simply can't move the volume of water we want at the pressures we want without XX amount of mechanical force. I'm going to try for the best sound levels I can get but it's important that you manage your expectations. My goal is to hopefully find something that generates most of it's sound in the lower frequencies as these tend to be less annoying.
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jcreviston
General
El Cap R1T Feb. 1, 2023
Posts: 28
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Post by jcreviston on Apr 19, 2023 17:19:04 GMT
With the external pump how easy/feasible do you think it would be to mount it to the frunk wall. I'm planning to create a new shelf which has openings/cutouts for fittings and it would be quite convenient to have the pump out of the way. Thanks for all the effort!
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Post by phatman113 on Apr 19, 2023 17:43:50 GMT
Thank you for being attentive to sound... As another person who's quite sensitive to it, it would definitely be an issue for me if it were annoyingly loud in a quiet camping area... Yeah I'm a tiny bit obsessive about it--mostly in my personal space though. Since the universe loves irony, I married a woman, (whom I'm still madly in love with after 30 years) who has a TV on in every room--usually with each on a different station--and can't go to sleep without a TV on. And I live a block form a 10,000 seat high school football stadium. In South Texas. There are days where I daydream about going to a sporting goods store, buying a coaches whistle, then running it over in the parking lot about 15 times =) As a fellow sound sensitive person I should point out that there is not going to be a 100% silent solution as you simply can't move the volume of water we want at the pressures we want without XX amount of mechanical force. I'm going to try for the best sound levels I can get but it's important that you manage your expectations. My goal is to hopefully find something that generates most of it's sound in the lower frequencies as these tend to be less annoying. Ooof, definite irony there, but opposites definitely attract! I'll definitely be happy with what we get if you think you've found the best compromise while taking sound into account. If you're paying attention to it, then I know it's not just an afterthought and a "well, it's not running all the time" consideration. Thanks for the response! Definitely excited to see how this all plays out, and for it to be finished, so you can start working on the SC[=0==0=]TR!
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Post by BoxGods on Apr 19, 2023 18:13:16 GMT
With the external pump how easy/feasible do you think it would be to mount it to the frunk wall. I'm planning to create a new shelf which has openings/cutouts for fittings and it would be quite convenient to have the pump out of the way. Thanks for all the effort! That is a bit of a loaded question because "easy" is relative. By that I mean it would be very easy for me as I am proficient in CAD, have a machine shop at my disposal, and a shop full of tools. That being said, in a more general sense, I would say pretty easy. If you're comfortable making a shelf than you likely have basic tools at least. There are some considerations you would need to work through beforehand. The one I would focus on first is where you plan to mount the pump because you will want to make sure the shelf can clear. I might also check to see what Rivian charges for a replacement shelf rather than hacking up some plywood--it may be close enough in cost that it's the better choice. I am happy to help you with your mods however I can when you get to that point. I would still install the tank "stock" first and see what you think before the hacking begins =)
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Post by BoxGods on Apr 19, 2023 18:26:29 GMT
Yeah I'm a tiny bit obsessive about it--mostly in my personal space though. Since the universe loves irony, I married a woman, (whom I'm still madly in love with after 30 years) who has a TV on in every room--usually with each on a different station--and can't go to sleep without a TV on. And I live a block form a 10,000 seat high school football stadium. In South Texas. There are days where I daydream about going to a sporting goods store, buying a coaches whistle, then running it over in the parking lot about 15 times =) As a fellow sound sensitive person I should point out that there is not going to be a 100% silent solution as you simply can't move the volume of water we want at the pressures we want without XX amount of mechanical force. I'm going to try for the best sound levels I can get but it's important that you manage your expectations. My goal is to hopefully find something that generates most of it's sound in the lower frequencies as these tend to be less annoying. Ooof, definite irony there, but opposites definitely attract! I'll definitely be happy with what we get if you think you've found the best compromise while taking sound into account. If you're paying attention to it, then I know it's not just an afterthought and a "well, it's not running all the time" consideration. Thanks for the response! Definitely excited to see how this all plays out, and for it to be finished, so you can start working on the SC[=0==0=]TR! I am spending the bulk of my time on the utility tray and kitchen already. The wholesale company I have bought my drawer slides from for the last 20 plus years has gone out of business--likely another casualty of the pandemic. 60" drawer slides have doubled in price and two way slides, which were insanely expensive before all the supply chain problems, have quadrupled. No way those are feasible so I am working on either modifying existing slides or manufacturing our own. The weight bearing portion, and the sliding in 2 directions are dirt simple. The tricky part is having the free floating center rail section retract when you close the drawer--a little hard to describe in writing. It's one of those things that seems like it would be very easy to figure out a solution for but turns out to be a much tougher nut to crack. It's worse because it is a LOT of make parts, test, make new parts, test some more, repeat, repeat. Scrap that idea and start with a new solution. I think we will get there though.
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Post by r1tca on Apr 19, 2023 22:43:09 GMT
I want to jump in with my 2 cents. I've followed and been interested from day one I think it is and am pumped (pun intended) at seeing how the sausage is made. Thanks Gene! I was really hoping for the video to be of the rotomolding happening, the tumbling etc. Super fascinated with engineering like this. Any chance they'll video that equipment being used for you/us? I wonder if my planned use case could be useful to share: I've been eyeing that Joolca Hot Tap for going camping with my wife (also someone who needs white noise to sleep, ha) who needs a shower to camp out... And I'm not sure what the Joolca uses for a pump, but I'm hoping I can connect the WOOTR tank to the hot tap and have a hot shower via this setup. As I'm writing this I realize the Hot Tap has it's own pump of course. Anyway, that being said, and to echo a few others comments, an external, higher psi, lower power consumption solution seems great to me. Noise is lowest priority issue for me, but I definitely and glad to hear you're concerned about the lowest db in the forest kind of situation. Higher psi for work in the "field" of your "remote garden" hehe also sounds smart! Seeing the submersible pump in the photo, I suddenly unlocked a new anxiety that I hadn't considered. That is that its that metal and parts living inside the water tank submerged for however long in water, that my family might be drinking and not just bathing or washing things off with. Maybe I'm ignoring all the other chemical and contaminants in the water I already drink daily. Hell I still love a good hose drink in the middle of the summer in FL and then spraying down the doggo at the same time. So another concept I just am brainstorming: could the exterior pump like in your CAD image, have a squared off, inverted cage/box that protects it, maybe held by neodynium magnetics? So that at least the frunk space it protrudes into has a solid flat plane over that section, but it can be serviced just by pulling it off. Conceptually I could liken this to the fenders that Craft&Ride make for the Onewheel that is magnetized and for what is pretty rough usage, it stays on pretty good. I could mock up a drawing if my words aren't describing it well. /2cents
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Post by BoxGods on Apr 20, 2023 0:09:14 GMT
I want to jump in with my 2 cents. I've followed and been interested from day one I think it is and am pumped (pun intended) at seeing how the sausage is made. Thanks Gene! I was really hoping for the video to be of the rotomolding happening, the tumbling etc. Super fascinated with engineering like this. Any chance they'll video that equipment being used for you/us? I wonder if my planned use case could be useful to share: I've been eyeing that Joolca Hot Tap for going camping with my wife (also someone who needs white noise to sleep, ha) who needs a shower to camp out... And I'm not sure what the Joolca uses for a pump, but I'm hoping I can connect the WOOTR tank to the hot tap and have a hot shower via this setup. As I'm writing this I realize the Hot Tap has it's own pump of course. Anyway, that being said, and to echo a few others comments, an external, higher psi, lower power consumption solution seems great to me. Noise is lowest priority issue for me, but I definitely and glad to hear you're concerned about the lowest db in the forest kind of situation. Higher psi for work in the "field" of your "remote garden" hehe also sounds smart! Seeing the submersible pump in the photo, I suddenly unlocked a new anxiety that I hadn't considered. That is that its that metal and parts living inside the water tank submerged for however long in water, that my family might be drinking and not just bathing or washing things off with. Maybe I'm ignoring all the other chemical and contaminants in the water I already drink daily. Hell I still love a good hose drink in the middle of the summer in FL and then spraying down the doggo at the same time. So another concept I just am brainstorming: could the exterior pump like in your CAD image, have a squared off, inverted cage/box that protects it, maybe held by neodynium magnetics? So that at least the frunk space it protrudes into has a solid flat plane over that section, but it can be serviced just by pulling it off. Conceptually I could liken this to the fenders that Craft&Ride make for the Onewheel that is magnetized and for what is pretty rough usage, it stays on pretty good. I could mock up a drawing if my words aren't describing it well. /2cents I am going to do my best to get video of the manufacturing process. The reason there wasn't video of the tooling sample part being pulled is that it's actually pulled by the tooling shop--not the factory that will run production. When you're pulling the first few parts out of a new mold there are a lot of variables to dial in so your hands are full just doing that. As regards the pump and all the potential different use cases, one of the reasons I went with a "pump hatch plate" rather than just a port is so that each user can install or use a different type or size of pump if they so choose. If there is sufficient interest I can machine blank hatch plates that people can then add whatever ports they want, or potentially even includes for a specific model or type of pump. Said another way, the stock pump we end up shipping with is certainly not the only pump that can be used. For some people that might be a relatively expensive $75 30 l/hr 90 PSI model. For others it might be a low power 1.5 amp transfer pump. As a designer I have to try to find the pump that the most people will like at the best possible price point, energy usage, ease of use, longevity etc. As for safety. I would never sell a pump that used hazardous materials. NSF / FDA approved plastics or stainless etc. only Safety guards for the pump. I think this falls into the "scope creep" area. As I mentioned, the pumps are not so delicate that you can't set a few grocery bags on top of them, and if you did drop a bowling ball or tool box on them hard enough to break something, we actually want it to be the $30 pump and not the $300 tank. I would even take that train of thought one step farther because one of the worst case scenarios that I have worried about is having a pump failure when the tank is half full or more. If you have 80 pounds of water in the tank it is not something you want to dead lift out of the frunk for a pump repair. I like the idea of being able to fairly easily replace the pump and drain the tank in situ. This is something I plan on covering in the instruction / owners manual. This is something that is unlikely to happen, but if it does it will be at the worst possible time and to the most helpless / vulnerable user. So better to be prepared.
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Post by shift4 on Apr 20, 2023 4:34:09 GMT
I'm assuming the plan is still to power the pump with a 12V cigarette lighter plug? Do you have a current estimate of what the wattage and amperage might be?
I ask because I am currently in the process of retrofitting a 12V outlet in my truck since it was made after Rivian discontinued it.
I discovered that the wiring coming from the battery for the outlet is only 16 gauge, which is a little disappointing since I was hoping it would be a little beefier. I bought a dual outlet unit so that I can also have the cooler/freezer plugged in once that ships, but don't want to overload the connection.
Also, any idea what side the power cord might be on the cooler/freezer? Since the pump will be on the left side of the frunk, I was considering mounting the 12V outlet on the left side too instead of the OEM location.
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Post by BoxGods on Apr 20, 2023 6:23:07 GMT
I'm assuming the plan is still to power the pump with a 12V cigarette lighter plug? Do you have a current estimate of what the wattage and amperage might be? I ask because I am currently in the process of retrofitting a 12V outlet in my truck since it was made after Rivian discontinued it. I discovered that the wiring coming from the battery for the outlet is only 16 gauge, which is a little disappointing since I was hoping it would be a little beefier. I bought a dual outlet unit so that I can also have the cooler/freezer plugged in once that ships, but don't want to overload the connection. Also, any idea what side the power cord might be on the cooler/freezer? Since the pump will be on the left side of the frunk, I was considering mounting the 12V outlet on the left side too instead of the OEM location. Oh DAM! That will be a super exciting project. I would love to follow your progress if you don't mind looping us in? 16 AWG is a little surprising for a branch that is intended to power headlights. Stranded 16 AWG is typically rated for 13 amps--plenty for our purposes but that seems a bit small for headlights, though maybe not for LED headlights now that I think of it. The externally mounted ON Demand pumps pull about 4 amps, and the larger 52mm submersible is about 6 amps, (48 or 72 watts respectively). The power plug for the cooler is actually centered so left or right is fine. The cooler will draw about 6 amps also.
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Post by BoxGods on Apr 20, 2023 20:39:33 GMT
Sorry this is a long post, but you guys seem to like being kept up to date and my sharing lots of details about what is going on. I found some video of the little Seaflo on demand 4 amp diaphragm pump that I mentioned we are going to be testing in the hopes that it is quieter than the other models we have tested so far. The company rep I spoke with told me it was about 65 db which is about the same as a spoken conversation. After seeing the video I am a lot less hopeful that the 65 db claim is accurate. I am including a link below so you can have a listen for yourselves. 4 amp diaphragm pump video.The pump SEEMS much quieter at the start of the video and gets much louder when the phone is placed fairly close so it is still possible it might be OK, but it sounds very similar to the units we have already tested so I am doubtful, but we shall see when we get our test sample. If it turns out to be too loud--which as I mentioned is my expectation now--I just don't think there is any model of the "micro" diaphragm pumps in the 1.5 to 4 amp range that will be as quiet as most people would want for our application. In the "small" size category, (so one size step up) there is a very quiet Seaflo 3 GPM (gallon per minute) 55 PSI pump that pulls about 7 amps at startup and then about 3.5 amps continuous. The trucks 12v can run that no problem, and it can also be turned down to say 45 PSI which would lower the max draw at startup to around 6 amps for those concerned about battery drain. It runs much more quietly and is what I personally would want to run where sound levels are concerned. I will include a link from Amazon that has a video you can listen to below. Seaflo 42 Series.The downside is that it is a fair bit larger--about 1.5" taller and 1.5" longer--and almost 3 x more expensive. The price difference mostly comes down to it being higher performance--more flow--and very quiet. Obviously it's more flow and PSI than most users will need or want to pay for, so I think if the last little 4 amp pump we're going to be testing doesn't work out, (again that is my expectation at this point) we're going to ship with the 52 mm 6 amp submersible pump. For anyone who does want to run longer hoses or needs the increased PSI, I am going to design a hatch plate with a built in mount for the Seaflo 42 series and offer it as an "easy swap" option. Basically 6 screws and about 10 minutes to make the swap. Depending on how much interest there is, and what you guys want, I can offer it as just the hatch plate mount and you buy your own pump off Amazon, or turnkey with the power plug and fittings already on, fully assembled.
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Post by FUNABLR on Apr 20, 2023 21:07:58 GMT
My only concern for having an external pump is damaging it. I don't want to have to think about what I put in the frunk. I still want to off road and take corners fast. I don't want to worry about something being damaged or not be able to use the frunk the way I intend to. Not opposed to it, i'll just need to figure out a way to protect it.
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Post by BoxGods on Apr 20, 2023 23:00:30 GMT
My only concern for having an external pump is damaging it. I don't want to have to think about what I put in the frunk. I still want to off road and take corners fast. I don't want to worry about something being damaged or not be able to use the frunk the way I intend to. Not opposed to it, i'll just need to figure out a way to protect it. Just to be clear, the tank is going to be shipping with the submersible pump as standard. The surface mounted on demand pump will be an optional item for any user that wants to run longer hoses or who wants a bit more pressure for the sprayer. That being said, it may not come through in the video but the 42 series pump is fairly tanky. Unless you are putting something quite heavy in the frunk and then leaving it untethered to slide back and forth violently while you're off-roading--something you obviously shouldn't whether the pump is there or not--then I don't think it is an issue.
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Post by FUNABLR on Apr 20, 2023 23:25:55 GMT
I appreciate the clarification. That definitely makes me feel better. Can’t wait till this first run is ready.
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Post by shift4 on Apr 21, 2023 0:26:24 GMT
Thanks for the update! I personally gravitate more toward the larger Seaflo 42 pump, both for its power and quieter operation. Since I intend to compliment the water tank with the cooler/freezer you are designing, the frunk isn't where I plan on storing gear for camping or a day at the beach anyway. If it is easily removable as you mentioned was part of the design, then that takes care of everyday use of the frunk when I don't need the water tank. With the gear tunnel shuttle and manual tonneau cover (coming s00n), there will be tons of storage space otherwise. Quick update on retrofitting a 12V outlet in the frunk, I can't for the life of me find the correct metri-pack terminals to fit the connector used in the truck (at least in the US). So I just went ahead and bought the same connector that comes with the correct terminals from AliExpress (credit to @rhuber over at rivianforums.com for finding the connector). Shipping will take a few weeks coming from China, so I will post another update once it arrives.
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